Old habits die hard, but thereās Reddiquette which needs to be revived, and some which needs to die.
Many āgolden-ageā redditors remember a time when downvoting was reserved for hostility, not a different opinion. For the sake of our growing community I would like to implore everyone to be awesome to each other.
However, this place is not Reddit.
- We donāt measure in bananas here.
- We donāt need to append āedit: typoā to edited posts and comments.
- if you see something which is worthy of a downvote: down vote and move on! Donāt engage with it and feed the algorithm/engament machine so other people are exposed to it when sorting by active.
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Showing the reason you edit a post isnāt dumb, its to give a valid reason so people donāt think you edited to make someones response look bad. Saying its for context, adding a word or whatever just shows you didnāt edit it maliciously.
The whole āedit: thanks for gold and I canāt believe my most upvoted comment was about editing!ā can go away for sure though
Holy shit agreed. The āthanks for le kind gold strangerā shit makes me want to fucking cut my throat. Some shit im begging to stay on leddit. All the shit on /r/circlejerk for example.
Edit: le thanks for the gold kind stranger
This argument never really made sense to me. Anyone who is being deceptive is not going to tell people theyāre editing their comments.
Itās the result of nothing more than a moral panic. There arenāt roving bands of keyboard warriors rolling around making comments and then editing them to make others look stupid.
And even if there were, they could just include āedit: typoā and get away with it. Unless someone takes screenshots.
I think it says more about the community that everyone is expected to prove their innocence. Letās have a little faith in each other, weāre better than that.
It makes sense to me and Iāve been editing comments this way since the early 2000ās. For some, itās a cultural practice thatās probably decades old.
If the platform didnāt state the comment was edited, I probably wouldnāt bother but if it does, there is always a thought at the back of the readerās mind about what happened. Leaving a note about editing negates the thought. Leaving pointless edits less so.
I find it more ethical and transparent, particularly in discussion threads where debates are being held.
I get it as a cultural thing, but it makes no sense epistemologically.
An unethical person would not state they changed their comment, and a malicious person would state their edit was mundane. Those two factors alone render the practice of proving your innocence in advance moot.
I think itās sad that people reflexively assume the worst. I used to engage in some heated debates on Reddit, but I was never accused of, or assumed the other person edited their posts to make me look bad. It seems like paranoid behaviour to me.
Strangely enough, if it became the norm to correct typos without stating it, the default assumption would be that the edit was a typo correction.
I didnāt downvote you.
I agree but like the premise of the argument is that there is trust issues, a edited reason makes it more trustworthy on a scale rather than nothing. I agree with that usually typos donāt require a reason but reddit? gave you 5? mins before an edited notification was placed on the comment for that reason.
Bad actors are always going to act bad.
I donāt even think downvotes need to exist to counter other aspects of the OP. I would rather a statement as to why this was a bad comment or post so as to make it a learning experience, an educational tool rather than a down arrow that could mean anything. Iāve been downvoted for adding relevant posts to the community I manage. What the fuck is that supposed to mean? Was it the content? Someone holding a grudge? What?
As I just replied to another user, paraphrasing this: downvotes might be perceived as the community self-policing, but if you visit r/vegan youāll see how that can make a community hostile. Iām a vegan and I canāt fucking stand that place. If you have an alternative opinion, prepare to wind up on the top of controversial, where the mob has a field day.
I think some subās had the right idea by limiting the lower voting karma to 0. Another downside is it essentially paints a target for the community before an individual has formed an opinion. It generate the hive mind we should be avoiding.
In that case, downvotes should be invisible. The sorting algorithm can see them but people canāt.
I donāt believe that tiny communities and instances should have them on until a threshold is reached and they become āsortableā.
Being visible is an aggressive moderation tool. It doesnāt foster discussion. reddit devolved into downvote heavy as time went on and I hated it, most of the time it didnāt make sense why things were downvoted. They work better for memes and pics, not comments (unless they are horrible) and discussions. Bad actors use the downvote for bad acting.
I got nothing more to say, you hit the nail on the head.
It reminds me of grading movies. If someone says to me its an 8/10, that is useless information. If they tell me it has some action, Iām intruged. Then they tell me itās a Marvel movie, and I lose all interest.
However, I will say that it was entertaining as fuck to see /u/spezās comment karma tank - but heās not really a member of the reddit community, just the warden hearing the prisoners shout āfuck you!ā before starting a riot and a partial breakout.
Youāre being really thoughtful and this is a good discussion.
I read through all the other comments and Iām disagreeing with a few other viewpoints from others pretending like aggressive downvoting/brigading is an individualās problem.
Perhaps a feature request to Lemmy could be an option. Rather than a binary choice.
Votes as is, upvotes visible/downvotes not visible but measured, up/down not visible but measured, no downvotes, no votes at all.
Discussion instances could work around what works best for sorting and discussion, general could work whatās best for them etc.
Forums didnāt have upvotes for years and it worked just fine.
Its a much better discussion than the one Iām having elsewhere, thatās for sure. I sure do love being strawmanned. I was hoping it would be more than a week before I encountered this lol.
Thatās the problem with having an opinion.
Are you bring downvoted heavily? Thatās the only way I know to know if I agree with you or not.
Iām only slightly in the negative numbers. So youāre completely justified in starting from a place of skepticism.
Come back later. Once I reach -5 you can be vindicated in knowing that you were right all along.
Itās not about being right cause I donāt know what right is. The downvotes tell me if youāre wrong, thatās different. I can then feel safe.
These posts are sarcasm, by the way. Dont start downvoting, people!
Youāre absolutely right. When the upvotes are high on a post I have a different opinion about, that just means theyāre all suffering from mass delusion.
These posts are NOT sarcasm. These are sincerely held beliefs and would (and will) be regarded as admissible evidence in court.
I might try turning off āScoresā in the settings so I can rawdog my feelings onto others posts and comments.
Itās a brave new world.
Edit: Did it. I literally do not know what to think.
Fuck yea cant, raw dawg those comments ya raw dawg, shit cant, dawg cant
(BTW this is not hostile, this is just how us Aussies talk to each other, itās a sign of endearment)
I like the āedit:ā append if I edited something, just to make it clear for whoever comes later.
Whatās the problem with it?
I didnāt do that because it was reddit etiquette. I did it because people can see I edited my post, and I would like them to be able to see why
Why tell them you fixed typos? Whatās the point?
Iāve edited my comments for years to fix typos and clarify statments, and I never once had anyone accuse me of being disingenuous.
And even if they did, thatās their, and their conspiratorial mindās problem.
Because otherwise people donāt know why I edited the post. Did I change my opinion? Did I add some context or detail I missed the first time around? Or did I just fix a typo? A reason just makes it easy for people to have more context
Thatās the thing though, itās a paradox.
Anyone who is considerable enough to use āedit:ā for legitimate reasons would not be the people who would be deceptive and change their posts to reflect a new opinion.
āedit: typoā is essentially just a defense against an imaginary accusation that you were being malicious.
By all means, edit posts to include extra information as an appendage, but closing with āedit: added infoā is not very helpful.
You misunderstand. Iām not doing it so that people know that I made a legit edit, Iām doing it so people know what the legit edit I made is.
Who is doing that or arguing for that? Vague edit descriptions arenāt terribly useful, and Iām not claiming otherwiseā¦
Okay I get you. I thought you were literally typing āedit: typoā, as opposed to something like āedit: she was my sisters friendā
I guess we both misunderstood each other lol. I wasnāt implying that was your argument, itās just something I find annoying.
I mean, it depends on the context.
Did I make a post, have a lot of people get upset because I worded my post poorly? In which case, a I might make a clarifying edit like āedit: she was my sisters friendā so that future people that see my post donāt get confused.
Did I accidentally type āthereāsā instead of ātheirsā? Iād probably just edit it with āedit: typoā. Not because people care if I made a typo, but because I want people to know that it wasnāt the first type of edit
I agree the context is important, and the examples of rewriting large paragraphs justify clarification, both for new people and returning.
But the original point I made was that you donāt need to post āedit: typoā here on Lemmy. We donāt have edited post/comment tags, so nobody would know if itās just typos
Itās really not that big of a deal anyway, I was just thinking of redundant examples of Rediquete to drum up the conversation.
Posts show as edited in many 3rd party apps and on other platforms
Edit - And in Lemmy too!
/c/TIL
FYI, I can also see an edit to your previous post too, directly in Lemmy!
Oh shit.
PLEASE DONāT TELL ANYONE WHAT I CHANGED.
It was a really embarrassing mistake and Iām sorry I ever said it.
That part I canāt see. Only that you edited it :)
I think itās polite to tell what you have changed when you edit a post as long as the platform does not have edit history visible (which as far as I can tell Lemmy does not).
If you add more context to your comment then sure mention it. But I donāt think itās required for typos.
The algorithm?
I wondered the same. There are āHotā and āActiveā categories on the front page but Iām not sure how they work. Perhaps commenting pushes a post further up the āActiveā feed?
This is my impression too. I see day-old posts with new comments on refresh, so Iām assuming youāre right. Maybe algorithm isnāt the right word, but you get what I mean.
It is in fact an algorithm because itās choosing what posts to put in front of you based on multiple criteria (time since it was posted, votes/number of comments/time since last comment). They are relatively transparent and well documented criteria, though.
However, itās not a personalized feed based on your interests and unsolicited data collection, which is what people sometimes mean when they say āthe algorithm.ā
Itās not just a personalized feed, itās also that the algorithms of commercial social media are created to keep you engaged for as long as possible, so you see more ads.
Turns out that people are more engaged with outrage than puppies, so the feed can easily become a super negative thing full of false information, which affects the person viewing and eventually the whole of society. E.g. I am certain that the fact that youtubeās algorithm so easily takes you into the conspiracy territory has caused a lot of people to end up on the fringes of society, causing shit like storming of the Capitol.
@jochem @silent_clash
I agree completely.
And Iād like to add to the algorithm remark that these are pushing for mainstream commercial interests of the platform and under no circumstances following or motivating intellectual, ethical or philosophical engagement. Algorithms are targeting the obedient consumer (George Carlin).
https://join-lemmy.org/docs/contributors/07-ranking-algo.html
Thatās very interesting, thank you!
I rate this post 0.5
bannanasbananas. edit: typodownvoted edit: wait I think I pressed the wrong button
Marking edits with āeditā is fine by me, just donāt use ETA for thatā¦
Disagree. You should politely state why you disagree. Engagement is good for newer websites like lemmy and you donāt need to be rude or combative to disagree. One of my issues with reddit is when people would get downvoted for making a fair point or observation.
My take for the fediverse would include:
Again, downvote not for disagreement but for content that clearly does not contribute to the discussion. Reason should not be given, as downvoting should be done sparingly and should not require a reason (for most sane human beings).
Be aware when interacting cross-instances. Culture, norms, and rules may differ.
Unless the instance operator is fine with it, limit your self-content sharing and self-promotion.
Remember that most of the fediverse instances are independent and they owe you nothing. The instance operatorās decisions are final.
Do not squat names on multiple servers unless itās what you generally have been using.
Cats are still the supreme beings. The fediverse resides on the Internet (assuming that it runs on TCP/IP), so the cat supremacy rule applies.
Cats are corner-pissing vermin. Fite me.
Wrong!
HISSSSSSSSSSS
Itās hard to understand your stance on downvoting, but from what I can tell, you think everyone who downvotes should just downvote and move on without commenting. Itās funny because every post I have seen about downvoting has said the opposite; āDonāt downvote just because you disagreeā or āIf you downvote, post a comment as to whyāā¦
I say everyone should stop trying to dictate how other people use their software and stop complaining that "everybody else is doing it wrong"ā¢ļø. If you have a problem with downvoting, I think you can join an instance that has it disabled.
negative numbers = negative person.
Negative person + negative person = negative people.
Negative people * negative people = Reddit
Itās less about telling you how to use your software, and more about understanding what it takes to cultivate a healthy community.
Itās too late for reddit, but itās not too late for us.
Numbers are not indicative of an emotion. It doesnāt matter why someone downvotes. If they are going to be a ānegative personā then they will do that regardless. I agree that everyone should make an effort to be kind and avoid being toxic, but saying that downvotes or ānegative numbersā have such power is just people putting too much thought into itā¦ Good luck with your crusade. Downvotes can be disabled by an instance admin. I would recommend anyone who cannot handle the negative numbers to consider joining one of those instances.
I think you might be underestimating how personal these numbers can be to some people. Iām glad they donāt impact you, but many people, especially the upcoming generation, equate these numbers with their value.
Big numbers can make people feel validated, that their opinions are valued, or theyāre funny.
Negative numbers may result in disappointment or feelings of rejection.
I donāt think negative people are ājust negativeā. Toxicity pervades cultures which allow it to spread. Down voting is sometimes enough to act as a nucleation point. Iāve seen heated arguments start over accusations of down voting, which isnāt isolated to their thread.
If seeing negative numbers is that impacting on a personās self worth, the ādisable downvotesā that a Lemmy instance can select will not allow down votes on it and not federate in those same down votes.
There are servers where it is set up that way.
As to accusations of downvoting, everyone who runs a server can peek at the database and see exactly who down voted a post or commentā¦ and anyone can run a server.
The issue of seeing numbers go up or down being tied to an individualās validation is more of an issue for the individual than the community and should be addressed as such.
You said its more of an issue for the individual than the community, how much more?
I see this as a shared responsibility. The main reason is Iām convinced thereās not much people can do about the issue of validation.
I see the validation as a double edged sword. Lots of people do legitimately need validation from strangers online, and Iām glad they have communities to go to, to feel better about themselves.
On the other side of it, is it can form into unhealthy comparison. Itās the reason Instagram stopped showing the number of likes a few years back.
I think some reddit communities had a good idea for limiting the karma counter to 0, because negative karma definitely contributes to how people feel about themselves and the community.
I understand many people see it as self-policing, but if you ever visit r/vegan, you will see an extremely gatekeepy community which breeds toxicity. People who step in any direction are taking a step over the line, and it forces compliance via mob instead of allowing mods to handle bad actors.
Exactly, as I said, people should stop taking the numbers so seriouslyā¦ To say that āitās just the way it isā doesnāt help address the underlying issue and it wonāt stop ānegative peopleā from being negative.
Iāve seen some of your replies to others on here as youāve tried to defend your stance and you have resorted to claiming that itās their problem because of their āconspiracy mindsetā. I could just as easily make that same counterargument here but it is offensive and isnāt productive.
You clearly donāt want to discuss the real issues and just want to shove your opinions down peopleās throats.
I donāt know how anyone is supposed to rationalise an intuitive emotion to themselves, let alone to other people. So saying people should just stop taking numbers so seriously is comparable to telling someone they should stop being shy.
Negative people will be negative for sure, but it really doesnāt take much for an irrational person to become upset. Evidently, youāre a rational person. It is often the case that rational people donāt intuit irrationally minded people (curse of knowledge bias).
The conspiratorial mindset comment was not directed at anyone here. My point was that people feel that they need to prove their innocence in advance of by explaining why thereās an asterix next to their comment. This is an extremely paranoid behaviour. I was being fallacious by saying it was a conspiratorial mindset, forgive me for being flamboyant.
As far as defending my opinion and shoving it down peoples throat, I donāt think thatās a charitable interpretation. I simply havenāt been persusuaded, and I think its fine to explain why I donāt see it that way.
On a similar note, if people should stop taking numbers so seriously, shouldnāt they also stop taking seriously the implications of a stranger who assumes people are editing mundane comments maliciously?
Okay, I just typed up a much better response and then lost it into the Lemmy void, so sorry this will be much more to the point.
You are arguing two sides of the same issue based on your own personal opinions on each one. The issue being that people have certain psychological or behavioural issues. One: people who feel the need to leave a note on edited posts are paranoid. Two: people get upset by the number of downvotes.
First, I think your assessment about why people leave a note about their edits is incorrect. Even if they are doing it because they are paranoid, they should try to overcome that and possibly seek real world help. It is also such a minor thing that we should not try to create some āinternet lawā to justify criticizing them.
Second, if someone is getting that upset over downvotes, they should try to overcome that, and definitely seek real world help if they cannot cope. Being their gatekeeper will not solve any of these underlying problems and will not stop people from being negative. Again, instance admins can disable downvotes, so this is a non-issue with Lemmy.
The differences between these two things are people are people are either doing it to themselves, or others in the community are responsible.
All I was saying in the OP is that people donāt need to clarify that they edited for typos because thereās no way for people to know you edited your post.
Itās all well and good to say āthese people need helpā, they surely do, but the point Iām making is that there is also something we can do, if not for them, for the community generally.
In any case, this is not a petition to dictate anything, itās an appeal to be better to each other, because downvoting everyone who has a different opinion contributes to a bitter community. How much it contributes is speculative, but the value cannot be less than 1.
So, according to you, the people who are adding the notes to their posts are paranoid and itās not okay because itās apparently not, as you say, an āintuitive emotionā response that they donāt need to justify. Instead they are doing it to themselvesā¦
Yet, the people who are getting upset about downvotes simply have no control over their emotional reaction. Furthermore, you say that it is everyone who downvotes people that are being negative and directly causing their emotional response and it is everyone elseās responsibility to only do things your wayā¦
Great logicā¦ I can see that you refuse to acknowledge that this line of reasoning is contradictory and flawed. As I said, good luck on your crusade against the big mean numbers. š
By the way, it does show when a comment has been edited.
This is very unproductive. Your comments started out well but this comment is laden with strawmen.
Iām saying that people who edit their posts to specifify that they have only edited grammatical mistakes stems from a perception that others may be skeptical about whether they have edited their post to trick people about what they originally wrote, is paranoid behaviour.
The intuitive emotion I was referring to was the feeling of rejection from the community for having a different opinion.
Difference being one is percieved, the other is evidently real, as I can see every time I reply to you.
I never stated that it is directly causing their emotional response (though in some small cases it is), but I did say it was a contributing factor on a greater scale.
Again, Iām not dictating anything, Iām merely trying to explain the correlation between community input and community output. There are communities on reddit where you can see both in full swing. Positive communities foster positive communities.
It is your assertion that my reasoning is contradictory, yet, I feel no cognitive dissonance and have no difficulty clarrifying my position.
You can choose how long we argue for, you can say goodbye whenever you want, but Iām always free to reply.
Sure, try to dismiss my responses as simply being unproductive now. Itās obvious you are intentionally trying to run me around in circles to wear me down.
As I have pointed out in every response, you are just contradicting yourself; making assumptions and judging one group of people for their (inconsequential) reactionary behavior while trying to gatekeep for others because of their emotional reactionsā¦ You are only proving my point that you are either unwilling or incapable of acknowledging that your reasoning is flawed and you have not made a good argument for your case.
I will repeat it again: One: Consider treating everyone equally, not just because you agree or disagree with them or because you sympathise more or less with their specific situation. Two: Downvotes can be disabled. This is not a concern for Lemmy or itās users; everyone gets a choice.
All of your opinions are your own, just stop trying to act like you are holier than everyone else when you have already been proven to stoop down to being a negative and offensive person yourself.
Im not dismissing all your responses, just the previous one. Youāre getting worked up over nothing.
You are making more assertions as time goes on. You donāt get to just declare that Iām āobviously trying to wear you downā or that you āhave pointed out in every response that Iām contradicting myselfā or that āunwilling or unable to acknowledge my reasoning is flawedā, (which also presupposes my reasoning is flawed, something in donāt agree with you on).
You donāt get to just declare youāre right about all this stuff, you have not demonstrated your claims. Iām more than happy to concede the failures of my epistemology, thereās no shame in it, Iām just not convinced that you are right (except that I was under the impression edited posts werenāt known, whoops!).
I agree with your first consideration, but not your second. This isnāt about the individual (though I do care that theyāre respected), this is about the community as a whole. It goes beyond one persons feelings. A self policing community sometimes works great to keep away bigots, but I believe when thatās the job of moderators, it creates hostile environments, whether obvious or subconscious.
I donāt believe Iām better than anyone else, after all, I wasted long enough entertaining this conversation, as you pointed out, I stooped to rolling in the mud with you.
Whilst I appreciate the pair of you demonstrating an intellectual vivacity and facility for debate that is rarely found on reddit, perhaps I might share a bit of my own wisdom, gleaned from decades spent in online communities.
Namely, know when to hold 'em and when to fold 'em; there is no shame in agreeing to disagree. Especially when the subject of disagreement is something so minor.
It may not be possible to formulate a scientifically complete theory of the psychological effects of making edits and downvotes to Lemmy comments and posts. And thus, it seems possible for two smart people to have different perspectives on the issue.
There are situations where someone is clearly incorrect and spending paragraph after paragraph to demonstrate that is warranted, or at least justifiable. But I donāt think this particular conversation really needed to be like that.
The thing about being rational and smart is that you constantly have to balance applying those traits to the external world and applying them to your own behavior. In this case, you two were so caught up in the particulars of the topic at hand that you were forgetting the context of the conversation, and thus leaving your rationality in question from a different angle. If either of you had been able to recognize this angle without my help, you could have effectively āwonā the argument by merely accepting that it was possible to disagree on this topic without admitting to being wrong.
Youāre absolutely right, no objections from me.
I enjoy a good debate, itās always unfortunate when it starts out well but then turns sour.
Iām sorry you read all that. I appreciate the detailed reply.
Tbh, I didnāt read all of it, I started skimming at some point.
I think we all need to consciously deprogram our brains from the reddit mindset. We are no longer anonymous specks in a massive crowd, shouting at the top of our lungs for attention and recognition. We are now part of a small community of talented and intelligent individuals and it behooves us to conduct ourselves as such.
But youāre both good, this was honestly much more civil than what things used to devolve into on reddit. I donāt even mind some highbrow intellectual banter from time to time š
Itās fun to debate, but I think itās important to focus on the details. Itās not as fun when the other person uses inflammatory language because they assume malicious intent.
As I mentioned in the OP and in multiple replies here, I want to cultivate a community of civil discourse too. As you mentioned, this place need not remind me of reddit, but it was nostalgic in a morbid way.
Being able to articulate a complex thought and have someone else really respond to what I am saying is an absolute gamechanger for Lemmy right now.
On reddit, I was so sick of typing out a long, well-reasoned argument, only for the other user to ignore everything I said and respond with trolling, sarcastic answers. Here, people actually have some level of self-respect, and they usually engage in good faith.
See my response here.
Wasnāt sure how to tag you.
Well if someone constantly has opinions that are very disliked by other peopleā¦ maybe they just are a negative person and they should be called out for it?
Listen, Iāll measure with a fucking banana if I feel like it, okay. Donāt tell me what to do pal.
To be honest building a edit history views makes more sense to me. This project is opensource we can do more than work around.
You are going to have to come up.with an alternate unit of measurement then. An easily available one too, as I am not keeping a lemming handy for the purposes of scale. Unless it was stuffedā¦ Iām off to eBay, back in a mo.
I use my Lemmy for architectural blueprints.
Wait what? People have those? A lemmy is a real animal? So many new things at once for me
A lemming is a real animal.
Thereās a misconception that they commit mass suicide by jumping off cliffs.
Smaller than I thought but it does have the potential to be a standard.
Metric.
Iām very curious as to what peopleās view on etiquette is regarding submitting your own content. I write a weekly newsletter about the fediverse which is pretty relevant to this community for example. But Iām also quite aware of reddiquette thats pretty hesitant on submitting your own stuff, as it can get spammy really fast. Would love to hear.
Personally, if itās good content I donāt mind a little self promotion. People wonāt see what you made if you donāt share it. Just donāt post it to dozens of communities, thatās when it gets way too spammy. Find one or two you think it would a good fit for and users would find relevant and share it there, as long as that community doesnāt have any rules against promoting your own content.
I donāt see any problem with that, and posting a weekly update is far from spammy behavior anyway.
Uh, no thanks? Thatās exactly what happens on Reddit. People see something,
donāt understand itdisagree, downvote, and move on. Thatās asshole behavior. Tell someone why what they said is dumb,and expose your own idiocyso others can laugh at them.Clarified here