As the comment there says, the surprise is that not every instance is blocked yet.
But Iâve seen hardly any Chinese on the fediverse, so they probably donât care that much. And itâs not just that Iâve stuck to the English-speaking parts, thereâs been lots of Japanese and various European languages. I suppose even if it otherwise would have a chance to catch on there, Chinese users know that if it did it quickly would get blocked.
Non-approved VPNs used to circumvent the great wall are absolutely illegal, though largely tolerated (and observed), but the authorities can and have used them as an excuse to bring people in.
Source: have actual been to China and played the whole âwhich VPN will work on which networkâ game many times.
I feel like I should say that a VPN isnât a magic bullet. Even if its configured correctly to totally obfuscate the data and the final endpoint of the traffic itâs still blatantly obvious that a VPN is in use. Given that the CCP monitors all of this stuff it wouldnât surprise me to learn that if you run a VPN long or often enough without providing stating why that itâll either end up blocked or youâll end up in trouble.
Given that the CCP monitors all of this stuff it wouldnât surprise me to learn that if you run a VPN long or often enough without providing stating why that itâll either end up blocked or youâll end up in trouble.
How do you know this? I have friends living in China that states otherwise.
As far as I know there are specific legal provisions for foreigners living in China in regards to VPN use, so what might be true for your friends isnât necessarily true for a regular Chinese person.
Even if its configured correctly to totally obfuscate the data and the final endpoint of the traffic itâs still blatantly obvious that a VPN is in use.
Which is why Chinese users donât use standard VPNs, they use obfuscated proxies with protocols like Shadowsocks and V2Ray, which mask the tunneled traffic as innocuous HTTPS traffic.
Thatâs a fair point, but what you are talking about isnât a âVPNâ, at least not as theyâre commonly known and understood. Please remember that my response was directed to a user whose comment boiled down to âGet a VPN, that will solve the problem.â A regular VPN will absolutely not the solve the problem.
Seriously, I can find articles like that detailing different incidents in every major mainstream media source. So either all of them are lying to me -or- you are trying to gaslight me.
The correct response to someone claiming something is propaganda is to go find more sources for more and separate incidents. If you can find multiple sources showing that a situation has happened multiple times then it stops being âpropagandaâ and starts being information.
At this point I have a pile of independent sources documenting multiple different incidents that support my understanding of the situation. Iâm still open to counter evidence but so far you havenât provided any.
Iâm sure lots of people do, itâs a big country. But for the vast majority I imagine that the risk of getting in trouble for it, plus the risk of the one you paid for getting successfully blocked, plus the difficulty of finding out which ones are allowed to operate only because they share all your data with the authorities, plus the cost, plus the usual difficulties in finding a good vpn outweigh any desire to communicate freely with foreigners.
I imagine that the dynamic here is reminiscent of the western mediaâs self-censorship. Western journalists learn to conform to certain standards and topics because they understand what kinds of articles are more likely to be published and advance their careers. This is largely influenced by the preferences of media company owners and advertisers, creating a selection pressure for content producers to conform to these expectations.
In contrast, in China, censors strive to identify potentially politically sensitive content and tend to err on the side of more aggressive censorship. This is due to the understanding that being overly cautious in such matters will not result in negative consequences, encouraging a more conservative approach to content regulation.
It might be discussion of piracy/VPNs or something like that. Chinaâs got rules about that stuff too AFAIK. Maybe if one of the admins can read/write Simplified Chinese they could reach out to the relevant government bureau and request clarification.
The Western âfreeâ population is one of the most information censored/restricted populations in the world, and yet they are flabbergasted that China and many many other nations wonât allow propaganda from western oligarchs into their country. It doesnât matter that an information firewall is the single most important military defense against the Capitalist information war. Thatâs btw why the western world are propagandizing their population for âfree speechâ, so we all can see that wevil China donât want free propaganda, sorry, speech.
The most amazing and Incredible is how hateful attitudes can be bought for a few propaganda dollars in the western for profit information market. So western people actually believe all the hateful things the western oligarchy says about China (and ALL the other enemies of the oligarchs).
How convenient and completely coincidental that the western population have the same opinions about nations and world leaders as the top elite⌠Could it be that⌠nooooo⌠no no⌠Western news are the BEST, and no Capitalist elite would lie about something like that to their own population, oh no noâŚ
Yes, thatâs a perfectly good explanation for why they need to block wikipedia, deviantart, archiveofourown, github, bandcamp, lemmy.ml, and mastodon.social: theyâre all just fronts in the Capitalist Information War
Largely unwittingly. Most of us are labor aristocrats of the imperial core who have been propagandized our entire lives in liberal imperialist ideology.
Then thereâs the media.
Joseph Kahn, the managing editor of the NYT, is a member of the Council of Foreign Relations, as are the CEOs of NPR (hereâs Katherine Maher again) and PBS. These are just ones I know off the top of my head. The Council of Foreign Relations is a place where the government and the capitalist class hash out the mediaâs agenda. On its founding, Walter Lippman was its head of research. The title of Noam Chomsky & Edward Hermanâs Manufacturing Consent came from a quote in Lippmannâs book, Public Opinion.
A couple more I can think of: CNNâs Anderson Cooper was born into money and interned at the CIA. MSNBCâs Jen Psaki, who was also born into wealth, was Obamaâs and Bidenâs press secretary.
Well, theyâre all methods by which culturally-bankrupt, ideologically-hued art and tech from the West could potentially slip past, ESPECIALLY where settler techbros are concerned regarding github and NSApedia-- I mean wikipedia; but youâre being a deliberately-obtuse settler sinophobe right now, so of course youâre not going to absorb that.
One of these days, yâall
gonna learn the âGreat Firewallâ yâall mald about is for your protection
Suuure⌠nothing to do with the fact that theyâre a decadent and corrupt failed socialist dictatorship, no sir. Not at all an attempt at stopping ACTUAL communists from toppling their government, oh no.
And thereâs the predictable, seemingly unavoidable Western need to project their own conditions onto anyone they declare an enemy of state. If you really believe CIA-backed color revolters are the âactual communistsâ, youâve done no investigation of your own, and as a result donât deserve the voice you confidently, ignorantly speak with.
Much as I enjoy arguments with strangers on the Internet, youâve reminded me of my resolution to avoid the most silly ones. If you think Iâm a sinophobe your judgement is very poor.
We see here for example the evolution of public opinion in regards to China. In 2019, the âUyghur genocideâ was broken by the media (Buzzfeed, of all outlets). In this story, we saw the machine I described up until now move in real time. Suddenly, newspapers, TV, websites were all flooded with stories about the âgenocideâ, all day, every day. People whom weâd never heard of before were brought in as experts â Adrian Zenz, to name just one; a man who does not even speak a word of Chinese.
Organizations were suddenly becoming very active and important. The World Uyghur Congress, a very serious-sounding NGO, is actually an NED Front operating out of Germany [âŚ]. From their official website, they declare themselves to be the sole legitimate representative of all Uyghurs â presumably not having asked Uyghurs in Xinjiang what they thought about that.
The WUC also has ties to the Grey Wolves, a fascist paramilitary group in Turkey, through the father of their founder, Isa Yusuf Alptekin.
Documents came out from NGOs to further legitimize the media reporting. This is how a report from the very professional-sounding China Human Rights Defenders (CHRD) came to exist. They claimed âup to 1.3 millionâ Uyghurs were imprisoned in camps. What they didnât say was how they got this number: they interviewed a total of 10 people from rural Xinjiang and asked them to estimate how many people might have been taken away. They then extrapolated the guesstimates they got and arrived at the 1.3 million figure.
Sanctions were enacted against China â Xinjiang cotton for example had trouble finding buyers after Western companies were pressured into boycotting it. Instead of helping fight against the purported genocide, this act actually made life more difficult for the people of Xinjiang who depend on this trade for their livelihood (as we all do depend on our skills to make a livelihood).
Any attempt China made to defend itself was met with more suspicion. They invited a UN delegation which was blocked by the US. The delegation eventually made it there, but three years later. The Arab League also visited Xinjiang and actually commended China on their policies â aimed at reducing terrorism through education and social integration, not through bombing like we tend to do in the West.
some of the gymnastics in this thread are hilarious. critical support is a thing you can criticize chinaâs various Ls while still supporting the chinese people.
I made an account a long while ago when it was the only instance with any content but Iâm just a lurker looking for memes and tech news. Feeling like I should change instance these daysâŚ
lemmygrad is full of full-on tankies, the type who would willingly send birthday greetings to comrade Stalin while imprisoned in a gulag, lemmy.ml once was a default instance and thus has random folks on it but is admin-wise run by tankies and generally seems to serve as the preferred instance for lemmygrad folks to have alts on. Stay away from political communities there e.g. their worldnews community is a silly place. Hexbear is hit and miss, not so much hardened tankies there but wokescolds and random lefties who donât quite realise who they associate with, why that kind of social dynamics is no good. Might have some inane takes, occasionally prone to dogpiling, but at least you can have a conversation with them.
What, the term âtankieâ? A term coined within the Communist Party of Great Britain? The CPGP is alt-right, now?
Calling the term âalt-rightâ is just a quick way of telling me youâre a tankie without telling me youâre a tankie.
Oh. âwokescoldâ is another possibility but thatâs rather unlikely, while the right has appropriated âwokeâ Iâve never heard them use âwokescoldâ which is precisely used by people who know and understand the original meaning and simply want to call out certain problematic behaviours done in the name of, but not to the benefit of, wokeness.
Iâll just quote Zena+Poppy on the term. You may not like it, you might prefer clinical analytical language such as âpuritanical progressiveâ or whatever, but from the context I used it in (making direct reference to social dynamics) it should be obvious that I used it in that sense.
And, no, tankie is not a âhorrible fucking wordâ. It is precise and succinct, also, tankies hate it.
Source on that? Iâm serious. I did a bit of googling and do see that the likes of Ben Shapiro have been using it, but thatâs definitely not where I have it from, and youâll also see plenty of left-wing uses of it.
I have zero patience for people who side with fascism.
I referred you to a quite precise definition of what I mean by the term. Can you explain to me how criticising the things encompassed by that definition would put me âon the side of fascismâ? Fascists have come up with plenty of terms leftists use all the time, an obvious example would be the word âfascistâ. Allegiance to fascism, Iâd say, cannot be inferred merely by use of some shared vocabulary, you have to go deeper than that.
In any case, and I hope you see the irony, going nuclear over the use of such a term, to drill down on syntax instead of semantics, is not unlikely to fit the wokescold pattern of behaviour. Depends a bit on how you do it but overall Iâd say itâs likely youâd hit at least some of the checkboxes Zena+Poppy are giving.
If you mean communists that support capitalist states like China, then yes, unfortunately. Better than being around nothing but liberals or anti-communists though.
Arenât you that guy who argued with your own community and played the victim over the use of AI art because you didnât want to accept you were being an insufferable AI techbro who doesnât understand consent? Like Iâve seen trolls flex more to criticism than you did there.
EDIT: Wondered why they didnât respond and. Holy shit I just looked at the modlog for dbzer0 and you canât make this shit up
So you ARE a pedophile-nazi. Fucking love to see it. I will be adding your instance to my block list. If you see this: get help.
Used to mean someone who would support sending in tanks to crush capitalist rallies like in Hungary (which most people who get labelled âtankiesâ these days obviously donât), but nowadays itâs just an anti-communist term for anyone that supports any socialist revolution that has successfully built a socialist nation.
All states are inherently âauthoritarianâ and enforce certain principles over others. What matters is if those principles materially prioritize workers over capitalists, which socialist states do.
You canât create a stateless, classless communist society from capitalism without a transitional socialist state that breaks the monopoly on force and propaganda that capitalist states have â specially in a world ruled by capitalist superpowers like the US which constantly coups and invades non-capitalist states. Thinking otherwise is just delusional and utopian.
No non-capitalist state will survive in the modern world if they donât sufficiently get rid of propaganda and deal with capitalist funded insurgencies, which capitalist states will label as âauthoritarianâ; theyâd immediately be coupâd and overthrown by imperial core countries otherwise, as many socialist states have (Chile, Libya, etc).
And regardless, socialist states are a massive improvement over capitalist states when it comes to âauthoritarianismâ anyway, same as most other metrics. The US has 0.8% of its population in prison for example, while China has 0.1%. Similar stats on most metrics for the USSR vs USA; socialist Russiaâs human rights were also far better than capitalist Russiaâs, obviously.
You canât create a stateless, classless communist society from capitalism without a transitional socialist state that breaks the monopoly on force and propaganda that capitalist states have â specially in a world ruled by capitalist superpowers like the US which constantly coups and invades non-capitalist states.
Ask the Zapatista. Yes, the US tried to get rid of them, couldnât, learned better and now is just letting them be. Rojava is an even better example as the US wilfully allied with them.
Figures if your revolution isnât centrally organised by Moscow or China post-McCarthy US doesnât actually care. Present-day US wouldâve also let Cuba be SocDem, as was the original intent of the revolutionaries, instead of pushing them into alliance with the USSR.
The Zapatistas are cool comrades who fought off the US and other capitalist forces as all socialist projects have to. Different from most successful socialist revolutions in that it didnât establish a state (though it was managed centrally by the EZLN), but it has since succumbed to pressure from the government and cartels and has dissolved its municipalities last year â so itâs not quite as successful of a revolution as those that establish a state, some of which have already managed to become nations of millions or global superpowers.
Cuba be SocDem, as was the original intent of the revolutionaries
âSocial democracyâ back then just meant socialism. The Bolsheviks who established the USSR were also âsocial democratsâ
And your fantasies of the US ever letting a US-backed military dictatorship be overthrown and develop are funny, specially when itâs currently committing a genocide in Palestine and not even letting them get rid of a western colony.
And the USSR was a centralised state capitalist system. China has even left the âstateâ part behind and is nowhere nearer abolishing class than it was at the start of the revolution. It actually regressed in that regard.
But, fine, call Rojava that if you will. Just shows how you canât see any possible roads to communism that donât involve the failed experiment that is state capitalism.
though it was managed centrally by the EZLN
The EZLN does not manage centrally. The EZLN is not even a governing body. Itâs a decentralised milita that councils tasked with matters of military security. It is those councils which are the governing body, not the EZLN. Rojava operates alongside the same lines, though details differ because cultural, material, and other differences.
I know it might be incomprehensible to you: A literal army, with all the capability it could wish for to order the local population around, sat down with the local population and told them about their ideas. The population then told them about theirs. They discussed, mutually refined their ideas until there was a consensus on how to move ahead, leading to what you see now. No shot was fired, noone was sent to gulag. Theyâve also been capable of large organisational reforms, deliberated to consensus, implementation happened just a couple of months ago.
Maybe you should set aside some time and actually study those regions, not just read tankie cliff notes about how they supposedly work, or donât, or are secretly authoritarian, or whatever.
The Bolsheviks who established the USSR were also âsocial democratsâ
The Bolsheviks were never democrats and the French social democrats still call themselves communists. But thatâs rather besides the point: The Cuban revolution was in the late 50, by then the split between SocDems and communists (both liberal and authoritarian) was not just done it had hardened. Heck the revolution ended in 59, after the word tankie had been established, which was 56, in direct reaction to the Soviet invasion of Hungary.
The point Iâm making here is that Fidel & Co came to the US, said âWeâre eyeing doing something like your European allies are doing and want to be friends, you know, unions, welfare, workerâs rightsâ, the US said ânope, canât have you not be slaves to Bacardi and United Fruit youâre our colony after allâ, Cuba said ânever mind then we thought we could be friends then weâll go with our second choice, the USSRâ. The USSR, then, demanded from their allies a heavily authoritarian slant, so Cuba adopted it, in the interest of national survival not out of preference. Which is also why they are by far the furthest along among the surviving ML states when it comes to democratisation. Vietnam is second, with quite some distance, China makes no moves in that regard and North Korea, well, North Korea is only ever getting worse, not better. Oh, Eritrea. Same.
Any social networks that have non-censored participants are. Usually, Chinaâs presence in social networks outside of its borders are for propaganda purposes.
I canât quite tell if this is a parody, the trade union bit makes it seem sincere, but the self-importance to think that lemmy is too left for China to allow is just amazing.
Iâm looking it up, and I donât see any âTienanmin Squareâ. Could it be âTiananmen Squareâ that youâre thinking of? The one protesting government corruption? Where unarmed soldiers were burned alive? Where Christian sickos were trying to get students in the line of fire to create atrocity propaganda? Surely there must be some confusion here!
You mean like that time white landowners firebombed Tulsa in response to Black Wall Streetâs creation and thriving? Or how about the time a PD in Philadelphia did the same thing to the MOVE Black liberation group some sixty or so years later? This shit keeps happening and the settlers think they have any room or moral high ground to talk shit đđđđđ
January 6th already happened but no consequences did. The US will only deploy violence if the movement is left of whatever their crazy idea of center is.
What type of society do you think would allow you to burn other people to death and string up their corpses? Is it one that you think would be an improvement over modern China?
point is focus your criticisms on your own society thatâs 1000x worse than even the most exaggerated crimes about China, cracker. Chinese people arenât children and they can handle their own country in their own way, they donât need some forum poster condescending to them and you donât need a warped preoccupation with a country that probably has nothing to do with you
As the comment there says, the surprise is that not every instance is blocked yet.
But Iâve seen hardly any Chinese on the fediverse, so they probably donât care that much. And itâs not just that Iâve stuck to the English-speaking parts, thereâs been lots of Japanese and various European languages. I suppose even if it otherwise would have a chance to catch on there, Chinese users know that if it did it quickly would get blocked.
Iâve only seen Taiwanese on Mastodon, especially as theyâre leaving Twatter due to Chinese bot activity.
Wouldnât they just use a VPN? I know theyâre technically illegal in China but from what Iâve heard lots of people still use them regularly.
VPNs are not illegal in China. And one can use it to circumvent any restrictions.
Non-approved VPNs used to circumvent the great wall are absolutely illegal, though largely tolerated (and observed), but the authorities can and have used them as an excuse to bring people in.
Source: have actual been to China and played the whole âwhich VPN will work on which networkâ game many times.
White man telling you VPNs are not illegal. https://yewtu.be/watch?v=bzti2CELXrg
I assume all vpn services accessible from china are run by government and they monitor the traffic
I feel like I should say that a VPN isnât a magic bullet. Even if its configured correctly to totally obfuscate the data and the final endpoint of the traffic itâs still blatantly obvious that a VPN is in use. Given that the CCP monitors all of this stuff it wouldnât surprise me to learn that if you run a VPN long or often enough without providing stating why that itâll either end up blocked or youâll end up in trouble.
How do you know this? I have friends living in China that states otherwise.
As far as I know there are specific legal provisions for foreigners living in China in regards to VPN use, so what might be true for your friends isnât necessarily true for a regular Chinese person.
Which is why Chinese users donât use standard VPNs, they use obfuscated proxies with protocols like Shadowsocks and V2Ray, which mask the tunneled traffic as innocuous HTTPS traffic.
Thatâs a fair point, but what you are talking about isnât a âVPNâ, at least not as theyâre commonly known and understood. Please remember that my response was directed to a user whose comment boiled down to âGet a VPN, that will solve the problem.â A regular VPN will absolutely not the solve the problem.
But using a VPN is not illegal in China⌠why would you even have to explain why youâre using one?
https://www.scmp.com/abacus/tech/article/3095201/man-punished-using-vpn-scale-chinas-great-firewall-and-watch-porn
https://www.rfa.org/english/news/china/vpn-punishments-05212020103537.html
Lmao South China Morning Post and Radio Free Asia are literally propaganda mouthpieces for the CIA
Fair enough.
https://www.zdnet.com/article/chinese-man-arrested-after-making-1-6-million-from-selling-vpn-services/
That one details several such cases and includes links to local coverage from Litchi News from one of them.
Then thereâs this showing that the CCP banned unregistered VPNs in 2017. Itâs partially why they prosecuted the people in the previous article.
https://www.neowin.net/news/china-will-block-vpn-access-for-individuals-companies-must-register-with-the-government/
If you donât like that then hereâs The Guardian with a separate incident:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/dec/22/man-in-china-sentenced-to-five-years-jail-for-running-vpn
Seriously, I can find articles like that detailing different incidents in every major mainstream media source. So either all of them are lying to me -or- you are trying to gaslight me.
Guess which one I think is more probable?
The correct response to âyou just posted propagandaâ is not to try and find a source that says the exact same thing as the propagandaâŚ
Like thatâs the moment you should stop and say to yourself âmaybe I was lied toâ
The correct response to someone claiming something is propaganda is to go find more sources for more and separate incidents. If you can find multiple sources showing that a situation has happened multiple times then it stops being âpropagandaâ and starts being information.
At this point I have a pile of independent sources documenting multiple different incidents that support my understanding of the situation. Iâm still open to counter evidence but so far you havenât provided any.
Iâm sure lots of people do, itâs a big country. But for the vast majority I imagine that the risk of getting in trouble for it, plus the risk of the one you paid for getting successfully blocked, plus the difficulty of finding out which ones are allowed to operate only because they share all your data with the authorities, plus the cost, plus the usual difficulties in finding a good vpn outweigh any desire to communicate freely with foreigners.
đ
Itâs like when your dad doesnât love you
how will we ever recover from this epic pwnage đĽą
Everyone to the left of you is a russian/chinese bot; a childâs guide to political discourse on the internet
I imagine that the dynamic here is reminiscent of the western mediaâs self-censorship. Western journalists learn to conform to certain standards and topics because they understand what kinds of articles are more likely to be published and advance their careers. This is largely influenced by the preferences of media company owners and advertisers, creating a selection pressure for content producers to conform to these expectations.
In contrast, in China, censors strive to identify potentially politically sensitive content and tend to err on the side of more aggressive censorship. This is due to the understanding that being overly cautious in such matters will not result in negative consequences, encouraging a more conservative approach to content regulation.
Wow, stop saying sensible things. Be less correct. Thanks!
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Are you stupid?
Heâs such a fantastic moron, I already read this dog down for filth.
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Low effort, get good :)
oh my goodness, youâre right. ghyna is just evil and we shouldnât think any harder into the dynamics and inner workings at play. i am smart
Does anyone know a reliable site for checking? This is just a random one I found: http://www.chinafirewalltest.com/?siteurl=lemmy.ml
lemmy.world seems to not be blocked. I have no idea how they make these decisions đ¤ˇ
Edit to add: FWIW Wikipedia has a short list of test sites: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_websites_blocked_in_mainland_China#External_links
Seems like hexbear.net is blocked as well
But chairman Xi what about our emotes!?
Oh SHIT THE LAYOFFS GOT TO US
Well yeah, why wouldnât China block a site full of libs?
Interesting. It wasnât when I tested it yesterday or several weeks ago using this: http://www.chinafirewalltest.com/?siteurl=hexbear.net
But I have no idea if these tools are any good. This one seems to indicate that itâs accessible but very slow https://www.dotcom-tools.com/china-firewall-test/
It might be discussion of piracy/VPNs or something like that. Chinaâs got rules about that stuff too AFAIK. Maybe if one of the admins can read/write Simplified Chinese they could reach out to the relevant government bureau and request clarification.
Please, someone tell comrade
StalinXi that this is all just a terrible mistake!The Western âfreeâ population is one of the most information censored/restricted populations in the world, and yet they are flabbergasted that China and many many other nations wonât allow propaganda from western oligarchs into their country. It doesnât matter that an information firewall is the single most important military defense against the Capitalist information war. Thatâs btw why the western world are propagandizing their population for âfree speechâ, so we all can see that wevil China donât want free propaganda, sorry, speech.
The most amazing and Incredible is how hateful attitudes can be bought for a few propaganda dollars in the western for profit information market. So western people actually believe all the hateful things the western oligarchy says about China (and ALL the other enemies of the oligarchs).
How convenient and completely coincidental that the western population have the same opinions about nations and world leaders as the top elite⌠Could it be that⌠nooooo⌠no no⌠Western news are the BEST, and no Capitalist elite would lie about something like that to their own population, oh no noâŚ
Yes, thatâs a perfectly good explanation for why they need to block wikipedia, deviantart, archiveofourown, github, bandcamp, lemmy.ml, and mastodon.social: theyâre all just fronts in the Capitalist Information War
Katherine Maher used to be the CEO of Wikimedia. Her resume is riddled with US military-industrial complex:
Meet Wikipediaâs Ayn Rand-loving founder and Wikimedia Foundationâs regime-change operative CEO
Wikipedia formally censors The Grayzone as regime-change advocates monopolize editing
Largely unwittingly. Most of us are labor aristocrats of the imperial core who have been propagandized our entire lives in liberal imperialist ideology.
Then thereâs the media.
Joseph Kahn, the managing editor of the NYT, is a member of the Council of Foreign Relations, as are the CEOs of NPR (hereâs Katherine Maher again) and PBS. These are just ones I know off the top of my head. The Council of Foreign Relations is a place where the government and the capitalist class hash out the mediaâs agenda. On its founding, Walter Lippman was its head of research. The title of Noam Chomsky & Edward Hermanâs Manufacturing Consent came from a quote in Lippmannâs book, Public Opinion.
A couple more I can think of: CNNâs Anderson Cooper was born into money and interned at the CIA. MSNBCâs Jen Psaki, who was also born into wealth, was Obamaâs and Bidenâs press secretary.
Well, theyâre all methods by which culturally-bankrupt, ideologically-hued art and tech from the West could potentially slip past, ESPECIALLY where settler techbros are concerned regarding github and NSApedia-- I mean wikipedia; but youâre being a deliberately-obtuse settler sinophobe right now, so of course youâre not going to absorb that.
One of these days, yâall
gonna learn the âGreat Firewallâ yâall mald about is for your protection
I donât want protecting, please open it up and let all the fascists here get absolutely fucking decimated every time they post something online.
Suuure⌠nothing to do with the fact that theyâre a decadent and corrupt failed socialist dictatorship, no sir. Not at all an attempt at stopping ACTUAL communists from toppling their government, oh no.
And thereâs the predictable, seemingly unavoidable Western need to project their own conditions onto anyone they declare an enemy of state. If you really believe CIA-backed color revolters are the âactual communistsâ, youâve done no investigation of your own, and as a result donât deserve the voice you confidently, ignorantly speak with.
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đ˝đ˝đ˝đ˝đ˝đ˝đ˝đ˝đ˝đ˝đ˝
Blows my mind how people like you can ciriticise another government and ingore the centuries of atrocities committed by your own.
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Much as I enjoy arguments with strangers on the Internet, youâve reminded me of my resolution to avoid the most silly ones. If you think Iâm a sinophobe your judgement is very poor.
đĽą
Lies, skullduggery, and willful ignorance in service of manifold atrocity have always been the settlerâs stock-in-trade. Hold your ratio.
Youâve been subpoenaed by the House Committee on Un-American Activities.
I fucking love that guy. If youâre reading this, please never stop reporting.
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Super normal thing to say to people who are sick of being inundated with dehumanizing propaganda from a genocidal empire.
Leave Hexbear and you will see a lot less propaganda from a genocidal empire.
This is rich coming from the imperial core that brought a century of humiliation upon China and is actively genociding the Palestinian people. China is neither an empire nor genocidal, despite the Nine Eyes propaganda youâre swimming in.
China is committing genocide. Israel is committing genocide, with the support of western powers.
Two things can be true at once.
As I have expounded on over a dozen times, China is not committing genocide, cultural or otherwise, but I will copypasta some of it nonetheless.
The USâs âUyghur genocideâ disinformation campaign has already been debunked several times over.
.
The blueprint of regime change operations
some of the gymnastics in this thread are hilarious. critical support is a thing you can criticize chinaâs various Ls while still supporting the chinese people.
Itâs because China needs help using Emacs. Lemmy needs to rebrand to a Vim learning resource.
Isnât lemmy.ml full of tankies?
More like strangulated by libs who need to move back to .world. Iunno how dessalines or nutomic tolerate some of these mfs.
I made an account a long while ago when it was the only instance with any content but Iâm just a lurker looking for memes and tech news. Feeling like I should change instance these daysâŚ
average sh.ithead. Fucking nazi instance.
lemmygrad is full of full-on tankies, the type who would willingly send birthday greetings to comrade Stalin while imprisoned in a gulag, lemmy.ml once was a default instance and thus has random folks on it but is admin-wise run by tankies and generally seems to serve as the preferred instance for lemmygrad folks to have alts on. Stay away from political communities there e.g. their worldnews community is a silly place. Hexbear is hit and miss, not so much hardened tankies there but wokescolds and random lefties who donât quite realise who they associate with, why that kind of social dynamics is no good. Might have some inane takes, occasionally prone to dogpiling, but at least you can have a conversation with them.
Using alt-right terminology should get you disqualified from any reasonable conversation.
What, the term âtankieâ? A term coined within the Communist Party of Great Britain? The CPGP is alt-right, now?
Calling the term âalt-rightâ is just a quick way of telling me youâre a tankie without telling me youâre a tankie.
Oh. âwokescoldâ is another possibility but thatâs rather unlikely, while the right has appropriated âwokeâ Iâve never heard them use âwokescoldâ which is precisely used by people who know and understand the original meaning and simply want to call out certain problematic behaviours done in the name of, but not to the benefit of, wokeness.
Donât fucking bullshit me, we both know that I was referring to wokescold. Tankie is a horrible fucking word but it way predates the alt-right.
Iâll just quote Zena+Poppy on the term. You may not like it, you might prefer clinical analytical language such as âpuritanical progressiveâ or whatever, but from the context I used it in (making direct reference to social dynamics) it should be obvious that I used it in that sense.
And, no, tankie is not a âhorrible fucking wordâ. It is precise and succinct, also, tankies hate it.
No itâs not a matter of how âniceâ it sounds, itâs about the fact that it was created by nazis for a nazi agenda.
I have zero patience for people who side with fascism. Sorry for having basic standards of human decency.
Source on that? Iâm serious. I did a bit of googling and do see that the likes of Ben Shapiro have been using it, but thatâs definitely not where I have it from, and youâll also see plenty of left-wing uses of it.
I referred you to a quite precise definition of what I mean by the term. Can you explain to me how criticising the things encompassed by that definition would put me âon the side of fascismâ? Fascists have come up with plenty of terms leftists use all the time, an obvious example would be the word âfascistâ. Allegiance to fascism, Iâd say, cannot be inferred merely by use of some shared vocabulary, you have to go deeper than that.
In any case, and I hope you see the irony, going nuclear over the use of such a term, to drill down on syntax instead of semantics, is not unlikely to fit the wokescold pattern of behaviour. Depends a bit on how you do it but overall Iâd say itâs likely youâd hit at least some of the checkboxes Zena+Poppy are giving.
Nah Iâm done. Youâre irredeemable. Go be a fascist somewhere else.
Indeed Iâll stay an anarchist no matter how much tankies and/or wokescolds whine. Have a good day.
If you mean communists that support capitalist states like China, then yes, unfortunately. Better than being around nothing but liberals or anti-communists though.
China isnât a capitalist state.
It totally is. Not by your pet definition maybe but millions of wage workers and stock markets say otherwise
Okay, I can confidently ignore your geopolitical takes. Settler wind.
Vaush proved that âlibsocâ is just a more socially-acceptable way of identifying as a pedo.
EDIT: apparently they instance banned me 4 months ago for âpedojacketing, fashjacketingâ which is an extremely revealing choice of language.
Either a nonce or a horsefucker, if their streamer-daddyâs any meterstick to measure by
Why not both? These freaks never stop at just one fucked up immoral thing.
You ainât lied there, thatâs for sure
removed by mod
Arenât you that guy who argued with your own community and played the victim over the use of AI art because you didnât want to accept you were being an insufferable AI techbro who doesnât understand consent? Like Iâve seen trolls flex more to criticism than you did there.
EDIT: Wondered why they didnât respond and. Holy shit I just looked at the modlog for dbzer0 and you canât make this shit up
So you ARE a pedophile-nazi. Fucking love to see it. I will be adding your instance to my block list. If you see this: get help.
Define capitalism.
Capitalism is when markets. I am very smart.
I find that the most accurate definition is a society where the primary mode of production is wage work
âState capitalism with Chinese characteristicsâ
Why my definition is pet?
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What a depressing view of âsocialismâ you have.
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Thatâs not what they mean
So classic anti-communism then.
Lol
Also no
Used to mean someone who would support sending in tanks to crush capitalist rallies like in Hungary (which most people who get labelled âtankiesâ these days obviously donât), but nowadays itâs just an anti-communist term for anyone that supports any socialist revolution that has successfully built a socialist nation.
Nah, its not anticommunism. Its anti authoritarianisnm
All states are inherently âauthoritarianâ and enforce certain principles over others. What matters is if those principles materially prioritize workers over capitalists, which socialist states do.
You canât create a stateless, classless communist society from capitalism without a transitional socialist state that breaks the monopoly on force and propaganda that capitalist states have â specially in a world ruled by capitalist superpowers like the US which constantly coups and invades non-capitalist states. Thinking otherwise is just delusional and utopian.
No non-capitalist state will survive in the modern world if they donât sufficiently get rid of propaganda and deal with capitalist funded insurgencies, which capitalist states will label as âauthoritarianâ; theyâd immediately be coupâd and overthrown by imperial core countries otherwise, as many socialist states have (Chile, Libya, etc).
And regardless, socialist states are a massive improvement over capitalist states when it comes to âauthoritarianismâ anyway, same as most other metrics. The US has 0.8% of its population in prison for example, while China has 0.1%. Similar stats on most metrics for the USSR vs USA; socialist Russiaâs human rights were also far better than capitalist Russiaâs, obviously.
Ask the Zapatista. Yes, the US tried to get rid of them, couldnât, learned better and now is just letting them be. Rojava is an even better example as the US wilfully allied with them.
Figures if your revolution isnât centrally organised by Moscow or China post-McCarthy US doesnât actually care. Present-day US wouldâve also let Cuba be SocDem, as was the original intent of the revolutionaries, instead of pushing them into alliance with the USSR.
Rojava is a decentralized capitalist region with no plans of being socialist/anarchist/etc whose leadership allows the US to use it as a imperialist proxy and military base in the region. Of course the US likes that lmao; the US National Security Council calls it another âisraelâ in the region.
The Zapatistas are cool comrades who fought off the US and other capitalist forces as all socialist projects have to. Different from most successful socialist revolutions in that it didnât establish a state (though it was managed centrally by the EZLN), but it has since succumbed to pressure from the government and cartels and has dissolved its municipalities last year â so itâs not quite as successful of a revolution as those that establish a state, some of which have already managed to become nations of millions or global superpowers.
âSocial democracyâ back then just meant socialism. The Bolsheviks who established the USSR were also âsocial democratsâ
And your fantasies of the US ever letting a US-backed military dictatorship be overthrown and develop are funny, specially when itâs currently committing a genocide in Palestine and not even letting them get rid of a western colony.
And the USSR was a centralised state capitalist system. China has even left the âstateâ part behind and is nowhere nearer abolishing class than it was at the start of the revolution. It actually regressed in that regard.
But, fine, call Rojava that if you will. Just shows how you canât see any possible roads to communism that donât involve the failed experiment that is state capitalism.
The EZLN does not manage centrally. The EZLN is not even a governing body. Itâs a decentralised milita that councils tasked with matters of military security. It is those councils which are the governing body, not the EZLN. Rojava operates alongside the same lines, though details differ because cultural, material, and other differences.
I know it might be incomprehensible to you: A literal army, with all the capability it could wish for to order the local population around, sat down with the local population and told them about their ideas. The population then told them about theirs. They discussed, mutually refined their ideas until there was a consensus on how to move ahead, leading to what you see now. No shot was fired, noone was sent to gulag. Theyâve also been capable of large organisational reforms, deliberated to consensus, implementation happened just a couple of months ago.
Maybe you should set aside some time and actually study those regions, not just read tankie cliff notes about how they supposedly work, or donât, or are secretly authoritarian, or whatever.
The Bolsheviks were never democrats and the French social democrats still call themselves communists. But thatâs rather besides the point: The Cuban revolution was in the late 50, by then the split between SocDems and communists (both liberal and authoritarian) was not just done it had hardened. Heck the revolution ended in 59, after the word tankie had been established, which was 56, in direct reaction to the Soviet invasion of Hungary.
The point Iâm making here is that Fidel & Co came to the US, said âWeâre eyeing doing something like your European allies are doing and want to be friends, you know, unions, welfare, workerâs rightsâ, the US said ânope, canât have you not be slaves to Bacardi and United Fruit youâre our colony after allâ, Cuba said ânever mind then we thought we could be friends then weâll go with our second choice, the USSRâ. The USSR, then, demanded from their allies a heavily authoritarian slant, so Cuba adopted it, in the interest of national survival not out of preference. Which is also why they are by far the furthest along among the surviving ML states when it comes to democratisation. Vietnam is second, with quite some distance, China makes no moves in that regard and North Korea, well, North Korea is only ever getting worse, not better. Oh, Eritrea. Same.
Rojava, Zapatistas? Sorry, but Anarchists can form States without hierarchy
Zapatistas flexed and built a centralized structure it because they werenât getting anything done.
Any social networks that have non-censored participants are. Usually, Chinaâs presence in social networks outside of its borders are for propaganda purposes.
Why would State Capitalists allow discussions about actual communism? God forbid he people get it into their head to form trade unionsâŚ
r/shithultrassay
I canât quite tell if this is a parody, the trade union bit makes it seem sincere, but the self-importance to think that lemmy is too left for China to allow is just amazing.
What is left about China? They literally murdered people for demanding the right to establish trade unions (see Tienamin Square)
Iâm looking it up, and I donât see any âTienanmin Squareâ. Could it be âTiananmen Squareâ that youâre thinking of? The one protesting government corruption? Where unarmed soldiers were burned alive? Where Christian sickos were trying to get students in the line of fire to create atrocity propaganda? Surely there must be some confusion here!
Yes, one of their demands was the right to establish trade unions.
Were the trade unionists the ones immolating unarmed soldiers and stringing up their corpses?
Seriously if that shit happened in the US, the national guard would call in an A-10 gun run on the crowd
You mean like that time white landowners firebombed Tulsa in response to Black Wall Streetâs creation and thriving? Or how about the time a PD in Philadelphia did the same thing to the MOVE Black liberation group some sixty or so years later? This shit keeps happening and the settlers think they have any room or moral high ground to talk shit đđđđđ
January 6th already happened but no consequences did. The US will only deploy violence if the movement is left of whatever their crazy idea of center is.
The US is a plutocracy. Whatâs your point?
What type of society do you think would allow you to burn other people to death and string up their corpses? Is it one that you think would be an improvement over modern China?
point is focus your criticisms on your own society thatâs 1000x worse than even the most exaggerated crimes about China, cracker. Chinese people arenât children and they can handle their own country in their own way, they donât need some forum poster condescending to them and you donât need a warped preoccupation with a country that probably has nothing to do with you
I stand in solidarity with all oppressed people everywhere, and I will do more than just criticize oppressors